Assent

Mr B died leaving his half share in his home to his 3 children with mother ( wife) having a right to live in the home for life).
Having looked at the guidance on completing the AP1 and AS1, we have questions over completing the forms correctly.

Form AP1 box 6 asks for the applicant which are the persons applying to change the register. We take understand this to mean all the to be named beneficiaries, is that correct?

Box 9 is asking for an address for service, can we just use the same address?

Box 15 asks for signatures, all those in box 6, is this correct? 

Box 4 asks for the application type and fee. I imagine the fee is the 50% value of the property? However, I have read somewhere that where property was owned by an individual then this is assent, but property owned in part is a Transfer.This is confusing , is the application assent to transfer?

thank you 

Peter - when a joint registered owner dies the legal ownership, which we register, passes to the surviving registered owner. If any changes are required re that legal ownership then it would not be an Assent (AS1) you require as the executor of the deceased has no direct role to play in any such transfer of legal ownership.
IN the circumstances I would recommend seeking legal advice as to how the 'trust' has been set up in the way described and how best to now deal with the legal ownership and the beneficial interests of the 3 children. It may be that there is nothing more to do than apply to update the register re the death (form DJP plus certified copy of the death certificate) but if the best option is for the surviving joint owner to transfer the ownership to himself and the 3 children for example then it would be form TR1 you required.
We deal with an application on merit and can't advise as to what's the 'best' option for all hence the recommendation to seek legal advice. Once the 'best' option has been decided upon then our online guidance can assist re the forms needed.

Answers to your specific Qs re form AP1 follow as they may provide helpful if you then go ahead with a form of transfer
Panel 6 - complete with the full names of those to be added to the register as the new owners eg current surviving owner plus children
Panel 9 - include address for services for each named applicant. It's your choices as to what address(es) you use inc an overseas or email address as the notes explain
Panel 15 - correct
Panel 4 - if the Transfer is from 1 to 4 and no monies changing hands then you should complete the panel to refer to Transfer 1 to 4 - Full market value £X. Then pay the appropriate fee which is payable under Scale 2 on 3/4s of that full value

Hello.

I think there is an mis understanding. Mum and Dad are not joint owners, they made mirror Wills and had their property title “ severed” 50/50 each. The trust, which is created by Dads Will leaves his half share to all 3 adult children. From what we can gather, it’s the AS1 form we use for assent, but something I read said it would need to be a TR1 form for transfer.

You say an Executor, which is Mum, has no direct role to play in the transfer of legal ownership. But surely the Executor role is to administer the deceaseds estate which includes his half share in property on this occasion. Or is it that you were answering as if the property was owned jointly? You refer to the form DJP which makes me think you are under the impression the property is owned as joint tenants, which it is not. Again your final comment regarding the transfer, panel 4, which dates transfer from 1 person to 4, is it not transfer from 2 people, albeit one is deceased, to 3, as Mum is a serving owner?

We could of course seek legal advice however funds are limited and if the solution is to complete forms in the correct way, that’s something we can do following the right guidance of course.

Thank you for your response and please accept my apologies for causing any confusion.

regards

Peter

Hello Peter - it may help if you share the title number and the names of the registered owners/Mum and Dad for clarity and context. I can then provide context to my response
However if you prefer not to it may help if I clarify the differences in legal and beneficial ownership as the former cannot be split but the latter can.
We register the former so a registered title is always dealt with as a whole. The legal ownership is the land plus building inc bricks & mortar (a property in effect). You can't split it into half each and have half a kitchen, half a bathroom and half the bricks & mortar for example. So when a joint owner dies the legal ownership, the property, does not form part of the deceased's estate hence any dealings with the property are by the surviving joint owner as explained.
As the legal ownership does not form part of the deceased's estate, probate is not required to deal with the actual property hence my comment re the executor. The executor may still have a role to play in any discussions/consideration of the wills/estate etc but from a purely registration perspective they do not.
The beneficial ownership relates tin many ways to the value of the property, so the £s and pence. That can of course be split hence the ability to leave 'shares' to children but often that split only happens when you convert the property into £s and pence in some way namely through a sale or an owner/beneficiary buys out a share in the value.

Hello Adam. 
 

I would be happy to provide details, however as this is an open forum, for privacy reasons I would need permission from all concerned first. What I can say is the property was owned as Joint Tenants but this was severed in 2019 when the Wills were made. Each Will leaves the individual share to the children along with a right for the survivor to live in the property for life. 
 

AP1 , box 6 asks for the names of the persons actually applying to change the register. I take this to mean the beneficiaries named in the Will. 

The question really is do we use the AS1 form, where in box 6, the transferees are named who are the same people as the named beneficiaries. . So on that basis the personal representative is named but I also understand this to mean the beneficiaries who also apply to have their names included on the title.

or.

Is the right form the TR1? 

Given that there is a deceased person I understand this to be Assent. 
 

Im sorry I can’t give you more detail for privacy reasons, I just want to get this right to avoid delays, but I am a little unsure about the forms. It could be what I read ref the TR1 is wrong.

regards

Peter

Peter - noted and appreciated although your posts appear to conflict re some of the details
Panel 6 is for the applicant so the names of those to appear on the updated register as the registered proprietors. 
An Assent is only used where an executor is transferring the whole of the legal title to the beneficiaries. That only happens when there is a single registered owner who has died. 
I don;t think that's the case here as Mum & Dad are the registered owners and only Dad has died. So no Assent is possible as the legal ownership, as explained, passes to the surviving owner.
IF the legal ownership is to be transferred then that will be by the surviving registered owner so form TR1 should be used. I say IF in upper case as that is the key thing to be considered here rather than any 'delay' as there may in fact be nothing to be done other than to update the register re the death as also explained.
Whether the joint owners were joint tenants or tenants in common does not alter the registration position as the 'split' relates to their beneficial ownerships and not the legal ownership. I suspect this is where the uncertainty has arisen hence my efforts to try and explain the nuances between legal and beneficial ownership
In my experience it is not really about 'delay' but getting it right for the surviving legal owner and the 3 beneficiaries. We can't advise on what's right or what's best as we register the outcome of such considerations. Hence my recommendation to seek legal advice or at least wider advice as appropriate re wills, trusts and the impact of legal ownership - Qs to ask yourselves or get advice on might include
Do the children wish to be legal owners? Do they have their own homes or plan to do so in the future? Are the wills and trust created, which allows the surviving owner to continue living in the property, sufficient to protect their position as beneficiaries of the deceased's share of the beneficial ownership/value as explained previously?
If the decision is to transfer the legal ownership into new names then the advice given re the panels on form AP1 and using TR1 can be utilised

Hello Adam.

Thank you very much for your detailed response and I am clearer now on what you have endeavoured to convey to me. 

My understanding has been confused between the “legal ownership” and the “beneficial entitlement”, certainly regarding the role of the personal representative has in making changes to title deeds.

As you say, in terms of legal ownership, the legal registered owners, regardless of how they distribute any beneficial entitlement, own property “Jointly”. On the death of one, the survivors become the legal owners and as such any changes that need to be made reflecting the deceased wishes can only be exercised by the survivor. This is achieved by completing the form TR1 by the surviving legal owner(s) along with evidence of death (or a grant) . Would it also be necessary to complete a DJP in these circumstances?

I understand now that the ascent only applies where the last legal owner has died and therefore the only person(s) to carry out the assent are the personal representative(s). AS1 is not the right form. 

In conclusion, Mum needs to complete the TR1 which confirms what I have read, along with the AP1 which contains the details of the 3 beneficiaries who’s names need to be included on the proprietorship register ( yes this has been decided as the preferred option) with these details contained within box 6 of the AP1, Mum being both a transferor and a transferee along with the other 3 transferees. 
we also understand that proof of ID is required for all concerned in the form of a completed ID 1 form for each person. 

We shall submit the TR1 AP1 and 4 x ID 1, but is it necessary to complete a DJP given a grant has been issued and will be provided?

Thank you for your repeated and informative responses.

Peter

Peter - I'm glad the posts have bought some clarity. You don;t need form DJP as thjat is only used when the sole application is to update the register re the death.
 

Hello Adam. 

Thank you once again for your prompt response. I have the TR1 forms completed now, however the YouTube video for completing the TR1 is not available at the moment, so I have looked at the guidance. From what I can gather most details are straight forward. However, for clarity can I confirm that TR1 box 4 the Transferor is Mum, the surviving owner?

Box 5 is for the Transferees ( beneficiaries) to be entered into the proprietorship register.
Box 10 , 3rd option, to hold the property on trust.

The question I have is about the execution, box 12 . I have set out the box with the required wording and witness details, however, there isn’t much space for all to sign as I understand the Transferor and transferees must also sign in the presence of a witness.
So my question is, does the transferor need to sign in the presence of a witness and once again sign as a transferee in the presence of a witness or is it acceptable for the transferor to sign ONCE ONLY as both transferor and transferee? 
 
In other words, there is 1 transferor who is also a transferee along with a further 3 transferees, so does this mean there are 5 signatures to witness or just the 4?

Just as a point of interest, the actual page of the document does have a considerable space at the bottom which could otherwise be used.

kind regards

Peter 

Hello Peter - if Mum is the sole surviving registered owner then Yes, she is the Transferor
The Transferees will be Mum and the three children if all four are going to be the new joint owners
Panel 10 - complete as appropriate depending on what is required/has been agreed
All four need to execute the Transfer in panel 12. They only do it once each even if Mum is both the Transferor and one of the Transferees. Form CS is available to use as a continuation sheet as required.

 

Thank you Adam,

The form is completed in the way you describe so all is well, thank you once again for your prompt response. I realise my queries have been time consuming for you and I really do appreciate your detailed reply’s. I just want to avoid any unnecessary errors and complications for all concerned.

Kindest regards

Peter

Peter - not a problem at all as I know how tricky it can be to deal with such matters. And your posts will also have the added benefit of helping others who may have the same Qs and our chat will assist them