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Posted Sat, 04 May 2024 08:58:45 GMT by Julie H
Help....
Currently dealing with probate in relation to late father's estate.
background -
1989 - ownership changed to Tennants in Common to safeguard my father's interest in the property so that his share went 4 ways to include me. In 2012 the freehold was purchased for £1000.
Father died 2021 and step mother 2023. I'm being told I'm no longer a beneficiary as the value of the property lies in the freehold and as that was "joint" my step mothers will is honoured whereby I'm cut out. Is this right???? 
Posted Sat, 04 May 2024 09:04:52 GMT by Adam Hookway
Julie - I don't think we can help as it's legal advice you need with regards wills/inheritance and being a beneficiary.
We register the legal ownership so if Dad passed away as a joint owner then the legal ownership passed to Mum. And on her death it forms part of her estate. Her executor would then deal with the estate, including any beneficial interests as appropriate.
If your Dad was a sole legal owner then the property would form part of his estate but I don;t quite follow the reference to freehold/leasehold here unless you mean he owned the leasehold and they both owned the freehold? Can you perhaps clarify with more specific details inc title number(s)?
Posted Sat, 04 May 2024 09:26:45 GMT by Julie H
Thanks for coming back so swiftly. Aplogies for any confusion. I will include title refs to help. 
it's just as confusing for me as the executors who also drew up both their wills are telling me that the value of the property in question lies within the freehold purchased in 2012.

Leasehold DU3887-  1989 clause put on to change it to Tennants in common ownership.
Freehold TY506453 - bought in 2012 in both names. (Joint)

 
Posted Sun, 05 May 2024 06:40:15 GMT by Adam Hookway
Hi Julie - thanks for sharing the registered information. Like you I am uncertain as to why they might have suggested that the 'value' is in the freehold title rather than the leasehold
If you look at the freehold title you can see how much they paid for it back in 2012. That's the first clue to support your understanding and the second is the length of the lease still left as it's value would remain as per the current market and significantly more than the freehold would fetch if sold separately.
With regards the property itself I should stress that probate is not required fro your late Father as the legal ownership, which we register, does not form part of his estate. That legal ownership passed to your step Mother on his death. It is probate for her that you will need to now deal with the property/legal ownership as it does form part of her estate.
We don't deal with wills/inheritance but it's not my understanding that you are 'cut out'. The TIC aspect you refer to indicates that their beneficial ownerships were split in some way, and you are already aware of that from his will leaving his share in that beneficial ownership to the four of you. 
Your late step Mother's executor(s) need to account for that when dealing with her estate as presumably her share of the beneficial value has been left to someone else. Essentially your 'share' is not realised until the property is sold and any sale would be by her executor(s). 
A quick and very simplistic way of explaining the legal and beneficial ownerships is to think of the former as being the land plus building and the latter as being it's value, namely £s and pence.
So you can't have half of the bricks and mortar and half a kitchen etc so the legal ownership is always dealt with as a whole. It can't be split or shared out as it stands hence how it passed to your step Mother following his death.
The beneficial ownership is the £s and pence and that is then realised when the land and building is converted into cash so for example sold or beneficiaries buy out another beneficiary.
You don't mention who 'told you' the original advice but clearly there is a disagreement over who benefits under the terms of their wills after her estate has been dealt with. If so I would recommend seeking legal advice to clarify what the actual circumstances are and to 'challenge' the view provided if that's the advice you are given
Final note - the leasehold is a good leasehold title but whilst that may be something the person who advised you picked up on I don't see that affecting the value either. But something your legal advice can or should also cover/reassure you on
I hope that helps
 
Posted Sun, 05 May 2024 07:41:06 GMT by Julie H
Hi Adam. Thank you so much... finally something explained to me that is useful and easy ti comprehend.

Here is a redacted version of what the executors (also solicitors) have told me.

I confirm that the surveyor has agreed with our position that the value in PROPERTY ADDRESS lies in the freehold estate which was acquired by your late father and STEP MOTHER in 2012. 
The freehold was purchased as joint tenants, which means that on the death of one of them the whole of the interest in the freehold of PROPERTY passed to the surviving owner, namely STEP MOTHER and therefore PROPERTY falls to be dealt with under the terms of her Will, which does not make provision for you to take a share of the property and as the freehold interest being owned as joint tenants the provisions contained in your late father’s Will in relation to PROPERTY ADDRESS do not apply.

Julie- in terms of the property I guess the ownership has now passed to her son living in said property. Understandable.

But..... in terms of beneficial interest half over the "value" belongs to my dad in which his will says goes 4 ways. It also has a clause that 5 years after his death the property is to be sold. Seems non of that is being considered by the executors. 

Again I thank you so much for taking the time to reply. My weekend had been ruined up until this point. 



 
Posted Sun, 05 May 2024 08:40:17 GMT by Adam Hookway
Julie - thanks for sharing and understood/appreciated. The key thing to understand here is that the legal and beneficial ownerships are not directly linked in registration terms as my post sought to explain.
For that reason it is important you seek your own legal advice and I am unsure as to what role a surveyor would have for example in assessing how the wills, probate and inheritance works. 
From what you have shared your late Father had a beneficial share in the property and whilst the executors for your late step-Mother are the ones to obtain probate and deal with the property that does not, in my experience, negate your late Father's beneficial share.
The issue I suspect, although the executor can make that clearer for you, seems to be that her son lives in the property and doubtless the intention is to remain and not sell. Hence the position currently being taken. That may of course be possible but that all depends on how the wills/beneficial shares are then recognised and realised for example monies change hands?
But as I stated that's not something we directly deal with and very much something your legal adviser needs to address for you. Solicitors who deal with probate, wills and inheritance may not always do conveyancing and of course HMLR don;t do probate, wills and inheritance so there can be a separation in understanding/guidance and experience re such matters
I hope you are able to resolve things amicably and please do share outcomes if willing to here to help others in similar circumstances and if I have got my advice wrong or misunderstood then even more important to share.

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